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	<title>Comments on: VBT Day 1 Discussion</title>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 01:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jeanette Clinkunbroomer</title>
		<link>http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-834</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeanette Clinkunbroomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 12:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-834</guid>
		<description>Sex can be a useful tool for writers if it's an important part of a character, an important means for her/him to express herself, or, as one writer pointed out, a sexual encounter is an important event in the plot for one reason or another. Like, it's one way to find out if someone is a sadist, frigid, controlling, maybe masquerading as another gender, etc.--things you might not find out otherwise. Maybe even to show that these characters' relationship has reached a stage of intimacy (and sorry, I just don't buy it that that can happen 10 minutes after they meet, as so often appens in fiction.)

However, I don't think sex scenes are always necessary, and sometimes they seem ridiculous. In an action-adventure book by a bestselling author, there was a sex scene as two people were escaping from a ruthless pursuer. It was bizarre. As I recall, the escapees were in the desert somewhere and mutually masturbated, without really touching each other. They just watched each other and it turned them on. Seems the author was hard-pressed to find some new way to do it in his latest epic. The whole scene seemed mighty peculiar and didn't have anything to do with the plot, in fact was a somewhat implausible diversion. That's what I would call "gratuitous".

Suppose instead of stopping to have sex, these same escapees had stopped to play game of basketball. Just as weird and pointless, given their situation.

For those who write erotica, sex plays a different role. Sex, then, is the whole purpose, isn't it?

Most sex scenes, too, come off as almost laughable. They're often so full of flowery euphemisms they're silly. On the other hand, they can get so clinical the scene sounds like notes on a surgical procedure. I think sex, like car chases, works much better on film than in written fiction. The writing gets in the way.

I only really find sex scenes offensive when they're gratuitous. It's like the author trying to get your attention on a primal level, in place of writing a really engaging story. Like bribing you with a cookie to buy this book. Sort of insulting -- figuring that's my "price."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sex can be a useful tool for writers if it&#8217;s an important part of a character, an important means for her/him to express herself, or, as one writer pointed out, a sexual encounter is an important event in the plot for one reason or another. Like, it&#8217;s one way to find out if someone is a sadist, frigid, controlling, maybe masquerading as another gender, etc.&#8211;things you might not find out otherwise. Maybe even to show that these characters&#8217; relationship has reached a stage of intimacy (and sorry, I just don&#8217;t buy it that that can happen 10 minutes after they meet, as so often appens in fiction.)</p>
<p>However, I don&#8217;t think sex scenes are always necessary, and sometimes they seem ridiculous. In an action-adventure book by a bestselling author, there was a sex scene as two people were escaping from a ruthless pursuer. It was bizarre. As I recall, the escapees were in the desert somewhere and mutually masturbated, without really touching each other. They just watched each other and it turned them on. Seems the author was hard-pressed to find some new way to do it in his latest epic. The whole scene seemed mighty peculiar and didn&#8217;t have anything to do with the plot, in fact was a somewhat implausible diversion. That&#8217;s what I would call &#8220;gratuitous&#8221;.</p>
<p>Suppose instead of stopping to have sex, these same escapees had stopped to play game of basketball. Just as weird and pointless, given their situation.</p>
<p>For those who write erotica, sex plays a different role. Sex, then, is the whole purpose, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>Most sex scenes, too, come off as almost laughable. They&#8217;re often so full of flowery euphemisms they&#8217;re silly. On the other hand, they can get so clinical the scene sounds like notes on a surgical procedure. I think sex, like car chases, works much better on film than in written fiction. The writing gets in the way.</p>
<p>I only really find sex scenes offensive when they&#8217;re gratuitous. It&#8217;s like the author trying to get your attention on a primal level, in place of writing a really engaging story. Like bribing you with a cookie to buy this book. Sort of insulting &#8212; figuring that&#8217;s my &#8220;price.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-817</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 20:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-817</guid>
		<description>I'm currently reading Dancing in the Dark by Mary Jane Clark. At least two teenage girls are abducted. After a day or two of being bound, blindfolded and gagged, the girls are draged to their feet, still bound and gagged and forced to  dance with the perpetrator. As repulsive as the image is, the sheer repetition (and the author does repeatedly bring it onto the screen) is somewhat hypnotic. I feel like the poor mongoose watching the cobra sway. Is the description gratuitous? Not all. But I confess, a bit too graphic for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m currently reading Dancing in the Dark by Mary Jane Clark. At least two teenage girls are abducted. After a day or two of being bound, blindfolded and gagged, the girls are draged to their feet, still bound and gagged and forced to  dance with the perpetrator. As repulsive as the image is, the sheer repetition (and the author does repeatedly bring it onto the screen) is somewhat hypnotic. I feel like the poor mongoose watching the cobra sway. Is the description gratuitous? Not all. But I confess, a bit too graphic for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter McGinn</title>
		<link>http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-816</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McGinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 20:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-816</guid>
		<description>Tastefully? Interesting viewpoint you are quoting there, but it seems like the point is that it is much harder to shock modern readers so what's the point? And if the Agatha award winners are a haven for those who want to avoid the gratuituous, it seems rather small-minded to try to push the limits just for the sake of doing it. If you want cutting edge, stretch in other ways: unusual plots, non-stereotypical characters, a mystery that doesn't fit into the formula in other ways. I don't read many mysteries because after writing a few it seems like I can see the framework of the genre glaring in front on me as I read and I'm thinking, oh yeah, it is a mystery so this has to happen. Try pushing that edge! Okay, minor rant over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tastefully? Interesting viewpoint you are quoting there, but it seems like the point is that it is much harder to shock modern readers so what&#8217;s the point? And if the Agatha award winners are a haven for those who want to avoid the gratuituous, it seems rather small-minded to try to push the limits just for the sake of doing it. If you want cutting edge, stretch in other ways: unusual plots, non-stereotypical characters, a mystery that doesn&#8217;t fit into the formula in other ways. I don&#8217;t read many mysteries because after writing a few it seems like I can see the framework of the genre glaring in front on me as I read and I&#8217;m thinking, oh yeah, it is a mystery so this has to happen. Try pushing that edge! Okay, minor rant over.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-815</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 20:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-815</guid>
		<description>Article "The Cosy Conspiracy"
By Brian D Rubendall
Referring to the Agatha awards, Rubendall wites, "My ultimate goal is to someday find a way to break all three Malice commandments in the same paragraph [no explicit sex, excessive gore, or gratuitous violence] -- tastefully, of course."

He later writes in the same article, "The dominance of cozies, and other less-than-gritty works is, pardon the pun, something of a mystery, especially considering how other forms of genre fiction are pushing the envelope of what is acceptable. The last couple of decades in the horror field have seen the rise of the so-called Splatterpunks, writers who pile on the gory mayhem with maniacal glee. Cyberpunks have become prominent in the world of science fiction, stretching the genre's boundaries with their high tech, apocalyptic world-views. Only in mystery writing does the trend seem to be heading in the opposite direction, away from the cutting edge, so to speak. 

"Once upon a time, it was mystery writers who tested the limits of what was acceptable. Legendary authors such as James M. Cain, Jim Thompson and yes, even Raymond Chandler shocked contemporary audiences while they entertained them. Mickey Spillaine became one of the best-selling fiction writers of the 20th century by ratcheting up the sex and violence quotient to a whole new level."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Article &#8220;The Cosy Conspiracy&#8221;<br />
By Brian D Rubendall<br />
Referring to the Agatha awards, Rubendall wites, &#8220;My ultimate goal is to someday find a way to break all three Malice commandments in the same paragraph [no explicit sex, excessive gore, or gratuitous violence] &#8212; tastefully, of course.&#8221;</p>
<p>He later writes in the same article, &#8220;The dominance of cozies, and other less-than-gritty works is, pardon the pun, something of a mystery, especially considering how other forms of genre fiction are pushing the envelope of what is acceptable. The last couple of decades in the horror field have seen the rise of the so-called Splatterpunks, writers who pile on the gory mayhem with maniacal glee. Cyberpunks have become prominent in the world of science fiction, stretching the genre&#8217;s boundaries with their high tech, apocalyptic world-views. Only in mystery writing does the trend seem to be heading in the opposite direction, away from the cutting edge, so to speak. </p>
<p>&#8220;Once upon a time, it was mystery writers who tested the limits of what was acceptable. Legendary authors such as James M. Cain, Jim Thompson and yes, even Raymond Chandler shocked contemporary audiences while they entertained them. Mickey Spillaine became one of the best-selling fiction writers of the 20th century by ratcheting up the sex and violence quotient to a whole new level.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Annie</title>
		<link>http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-811</link>
		<dc:creator>Annie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 16:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-811</guid>
		<description>Murder is often the theme of the mystery (some blood and gore is usually involved) and it seems that many mysteries tend to include detailed sex scenes (not necessary as far as I am concerned).  A book that I read recently included a BBW, big, beautiful woman, porn star and you got the idea without a lot of graphic description.  Some graphic details detract from the story instead of adding to the story.  Graphic for the sake of being graphic does not a good story make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Murder is often the theme of the mystery (some blood and gore is usually involved) and it seems that many mysteries tend to include detailed sex scenes (not necessary as far as I am concerned).  A book that I read recently included a BBW, big, beautiful woman, porn star and you got the idea without a lot of graphic description.  Some graphic details detract from the story instead of adding to the story.  Graphic for the sake of being graphic does not a good story make.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter McGinn</title>
		<link>http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-810</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McGinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 16:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-810</guid>
		<description>You know, I didn't comment on graphic violence, just the language and sex. I just plain don't like the buckets of blood style of writing. I mean, my victims of violence don't hit the ground with neat little holes in their bodies, but I don't spend a lot of time on decribing it. I suppose it would be different if forensics plays a large role in the solving of the crime, but even then there is a difference between detailing that kind of evidence and giving graphic bloody detail of the crime itself. So I don't go there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I didn&#8217;t comment on graphic violence, just the language and sex. I just plain don&#8217;t like the buckets of blood style of writing. I mean, my victims of violence don&#8217;t hit the ground with neat little holes in their bodies, but I don&#8217;t spend a lot of time on decribing it. I suppose it would be different if forensics plays a large role in the solving of the crime, but even then there is a difference between detailing that kind of evidence and giving graphic bloody detail of the crime itself. So I don&#8217;t go there.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-808</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 15:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://murder.booklocker.com/2007/05/07/vbt-day-1-discussion/#comment-808</guid>
		<description>I think it is worth noting that ""The Agatha Awards honor the traditional mystery—-books best typified by the works of Agatha Christie. The genre is generally characterized by mysteries that contain no explicit sex, excessive gore, or gratuitous violence... ." (from Malice Domestic, Ltd.)

In an article about women mystery writers: "Lisa Daily, a columnist in Sarasota, Fla., finds mysteries by women often "funnier and less gruesome." She adds, 'You get all of the excitement of a good mystery yarn without having to endure seven nauseatingly descriptive pages of blood.' " (from the Christian Science Monitor).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is worth noting that &#8220;&#8221;The Agatha Awards honor the traditional mystery—-books best typified by the works of Agatha Christie. The genre is generally characterized by mysteries that contain no explicit sex, excessive gore, or gratuitous violence&#8230; .&#8221; (from Malice Domestic, Ltd.)</p>
<p>In an article about women mystery writers: &#8220;Lisa Daily, a columnist in Sarasota, Fla., finds mysteries by women often &#8220;funnier and less gruesome.&#8221; She adds, &#8216;You get all of the excitement of a good mystery yarn without having to endure seven nauseatingly descriptive pages of blood.&#8217; &#8221; (from the Christian Science Monitor).</p>
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